Official Luthiers Forum!

Fellow OLF'ers

I regret to inform all the interested people in the Gotoh Tuner Group buy that I will no longer pursue this group purchase.
After receiving several emails and PMs from concerned fellow OLF'ers I decided to end this venture.
It was brought to my attention that this event was tryed before but also brought to an end because it would eventually be taking business away from companies who support this very forum that became part of our daily lifes....

My intentions were meant in the best interest of the forum members to get a bit ahead and get a break from retail prices. I had to intent to disrupt business from the very same companies who make this forum possible.
Needless to say that I am extremely disapointed and heart broken that my desire to do good had to be put to an end.

I only hope one of our sponsors would "step up to the plate" and put this same venture together to help the OLF'ers get a break and at the same time process a decent size sale!!

Sorry for the disapointment,

peterm39012.9412152778

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Peter and fellow OLF's

I appreciate your position and suggest that with what appeared to be around 75 + sets and growing, why not contact our sponsors that carry this particular type and style and see what they will do for a group buy. This has to have some value, after all, guys like myself might order 1-2 sets at a time over some time, but getting an order in for what could become 100 sets with the OLF helping put it together should be of value to our sponsors that may provide better discounts.

Just a thought

Mike

Hesh,
I'm with you on that one! I bet 90% or more of the people that signed up for the group buy wouldn't have bought anything if it wasn't for the group deal... to participate and stock up on something otherwise needless at the time....like myself! peterm39013.0267476852

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Hmmmmmmmmm.

I'm all for supporting the forum sponsors. I think we do that in two ways:

(1) When we have a need, we consider giving our business to the sponsors.

(2) We refrain from advertising our own products that compete with the sponsors.

I suspect that's all the sponsors expect of us. I don't think the sponsors expect us to sanitize this forum of anything that might result in a business transaction that doesn't involve them.

This isn't my sandbox, and I'll play by whatever rules our hosts set. But I'm probably not the only one here
who left another sandbox when I concluded that it was more about supporting the sponsors than supporting the building community. I came to this forum because it strived to balance the two.

Group buys are an example of that balance. If one of our sponsors wants to offer a group buy opportunity, great. But if not, then I would hope we could work together as a community to create an opportunity that our sponsors aren't interested in.

Regardless of how this turns out, we need to remember that sponsorship is not the trump card in every decision, but just one factor to balance in the equation.

Sorry to hijack the thread.Kelby39013.1384027778

Kelby, great point. I know I'm a newer member, but the fact remains that most of the orders including mine were made to support the group buy--not due to needing tuners.
To this date, I have never purchased a piece of equipment or zoot from anyone other than a sponsor!
I am ALL for offering the buy opportunity to a sponsor but if they are not interested--whats the harm?

Touche

Oh dear, here we go..

I really like and support most of our sponsors, I think they are a great bunch of people to deal with. I totally understand that they would feel they should have some rights to our support if they are putting their hard earned on the line to back our community and, I think in the main, they get that support from the majority of the membership.

But boy, I cannot believe what has gone down here, my disappointment lay in the fact that regardless of how much our sponsors pay to have and active link here, it is us, the everyday members who post our ideas and thought here free of charge that attracts new membership and make this place work and I think it is a bit miserable to have such a little reward for our efforts sabotaged by those who can not stand to think that they might be missing out on a buck Get a grip for goodness sake.

With everything that is good about the OLF, that is not.

Up ya Bums

Kim

Ok, this needs to stop.

Peter's decision was not due to a sponsor complaining, but rather some members concern about how this does not go to the spirit of supporting the sponsors.

There is no need to form a mob and get the pitchforks and torches out. The sponsors didn't kill this. I know it is easy to assume that... but you would be wrong.

The sponsors are all very gracious and have done a lot to support this community. While I buy virtually everything I need from our pool of sponsors I still have a few sources outside this pool. I am sure they all know this and expect it.   The sponsors should be our first choice, not our only choice.

Don't misdirect Peter's decision.

Brock Poling39013.4085300926

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

My apologies Brock,

Both to you and any sponsors who may have felt burnt but I still do not see why a few squeaky wheels were able to tip this thing up side down, if they felt "it was not in the spirit", then that is fine, they need not support it, their choice why get involved.

After partying with an awful lot of money in such a short time to feed my habit and support our sponsors it gets up my nose that some could even suggest that we do not do things within the spirit. Especially when you consider the amount of people that had expressed interest, between them, they must have spent an enormous amount in support of our sponsors over the last 12 month alone. Those few who grizzling maybe should consider that point and also what I said above about who actually makes this place what it is, not sponsors and not a few individuals, but all of us.

Kim

Okay. Can we get some tuners at a really good price now? I'm ready to buy! (I can't resist a good sale on things I know I'll need)

First off guys, no sponsor lead me to cancel the group buy so please refrain from harsh comments.

The reason I did it was simply because some members expressed their opinion and concern regarding our sponsors position as far as this forum is concerned.

I am starting to beleive that the group buy is in no way a threat to great sponsors as many have expressed to me by PM's and emails.

Like Hesh said, many wouldn't even consider buying tuners at this time if it wasn't for the group buy.

I'll wait for more feedback from the rest of the group and go from there.

As long as we don't step on any toes....

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Peter, I was involved in the early stages of a group buy on some EIR some time back. I started to get concerned, like you, that our sponsors were getting hurt in the process. So I contacted one of them. Asked him if he would be interested.I told him the price we were looking at and he couldn't come anywhere near it. So with his blessing we proceded. It might be in the best interest to contact the sponsors and ask if they would be interested in "bidding" on this. I'd much rather go to them but I realize that they have their price standards that they must uphold. Worth checking out anyway.

Brock, sorry if I started something that turned into a sponsor-bashing party. That was not my aim. I thought Peter's original post was clear that it was member complaints (as opposed to sponsor complaints) that led to his decision, and that's what I was addressing.

People can sometimes go to extremes in the name of protecting the sponsors' interests. (Price removed by staff)

[QUOTE=Kelby] Brock, sorry if I started something that turned into a sponsor-bashing party. That was not my aim. I thought Peter's original post was clear that it was member complaints (as opposed to sponsor complaints) that led to his decision, and that's what I was addressing.

People can sometimes go to extremes in the name of protecting the sponsors' interests. (Price removed by staff)[/QUOTE]


It is cool... I understand.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Hesh...I agree with you!

I think it would nice to get an "either/or" from our sponsors that sell the tuners in question. My brother in law would be doing me a favor and use his business to get the tuners at a bulk price directly from the manufacturer but I'm sure LMI or Stewmac get them the same way.

Anyone knows the best way to put something together through one of our vendors? I think we may get to 100 tuners or more.... so thats a nice chunk of change!

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Very good plan, Peter, thanks to you and your brother for the work, Hesh, you make some very good and valid points and I am with you my friend on all of the above.
Brock, great points and clarification as well.

To me this is a matter of courtesy and consideration towards our sponsors, nothing forced. The relationship between these companies, the owners and the OLF is a great one and I certainly recognize that these sponsors are also great particpants in discussions, sharing and support to all us.

Be Happy

Mike

LMI sells the Delta gold w/black buttons for $84.25 for 3 plus.
Allied sells the 510's gold w/black buttons for $83.00 for 6-10, don't know if they have better above 10
Stew-Mac sells the 510's in gold only for $73.08 for 3 plus, no black buttons, but you can get them as an accesory.

So when someone calls the three sponsor's who carry the items in question and see if they will match or beat the offer, I don't personally see why it's a big deal to go direct to the factory. Everybody wants a deal, and If the sponsors can't/won't offer the same deal, that's their decision, no need to get all worked up about it, that's just buisiness.

Besides Shane at Highmountain, who else (sponsers that is) sells tuners??? Maybe Shane want's to get involved at the Gotoh manufacturing end. I know that other smaller builders buy direct, so.....

Remember, this is a business thing, nothing personal right. Business is business, period.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

[QUOTE=Rod True]

Remember, this is a business thing, nothing personal right. Business is business, period.[/QUOTE]

Yes, business is business. But have you considered what's involved in buying directly from Gotoh? You can't go right to Gotoh. You have to go through an approved Gotoh dealer. After years of working hard at NAMM to meet with Mr. Gotoh we were finally granted an audience, and only then did he recommend us to his dealer in Japan. Once approved, you then have to prepare your order in the most precise manner using order lists that make almost no sense and have a part number for every screw. You don't just order X number of sets, you have configure the tuners. Then you email your initial request, wait for the response, fine tune it and send it again, determine the cost converting the yen, arrange to wire transfer the money, wait for confirmation of the order and an idea of how they will arrive - by air or by sea - and how long you might have to wait for the arrival - weeks. Getting them into the country once they decided when they were sending them was the easiest part of the whole deal - Customs wasn't a problem. Then you get the order and have to break it down and make sure you have all the pieces. It's a lot of work just to get that break. And a one-time order of 75 sets won't likely get you in the door. They are looking for people who will place large orders regularly.

If you're planning on pursuing these dealers, then you need to have a business license/resale license to get wholesale prices. It would be in your best interest to join NAMM and go to the shows to meet the representatives. For some dealers, they will also ask you for proof of your business in some form (a brochure, website - one even requested a picture of the storefront with signage)and many will require a few references from other people you have purchased from to show you are a real business. This is if you are looking for the best possible price. And then minimums are hefty and sometimes the break point is not worth it.

Yes, business is busines, and the dollar still speaks. But factor in the work and time involved to build the reputation to get the deals and then decide if it's worth it to save money on a couple sets apiece.

If I was going to buy two sets, I would gladly pay somebody else for time and effort. And we do when it comes to onesy/twosy specialty items.

Just my .02

Lance McCollum

Lance, my brother in law is a music instruments and parts dealer. He has ordered from them before all kinds of different parts including tuners.

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Peter,

Then if he has worked with a Gotoh dealer before (nobody buys direct), sounds like you're set.

Have fun,

Lance

Right Lance ... I know my supplier here deals with a Gotoh buyer (heck a couple years back a friend and music store owner got me the export price list for Gotoh at NAMM and I thought wow, these are really well priced, but then you see the charge they add on for small orders and it becomes very prohibitive), and the minimum order is somewhere around 15K US .. he only orders 3 maybe 4 times a year because it takes a while to build up that much product.

Ordering now I wouldnt expect anything by Christmas .. its usually a couple months in getting here.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

What Lance said!
I just pulled out the order from January 2004, right after being introduced to the "supplier" at the Winter NAMM convention in Anaheim. We emailed our list on Jan 10 and had a detailed quote back on Jan 22. The total order was 100 sets of tuners (varied assortment). I Wire Transferred 369184 Yen on Jan 26 (about $3300 at the time). Tuners arrived in bulk packaging the 2nd week of March. Lance and I then sat down and divided up all the necessary washers and screws to make the completed sets. This order has lasted us about 3 years, but we are getting down to the bottom of the supply drawer.

Please note that both of us had business licenses, resale tax certificates, brochures, websites, presence at various festivals/shows and more than 10 years in the business before we "broke into the inner circle" and were able to get a "supplier's quote".
Business may be business, but you do need credentials. It took not quite as much effort to get into D'Addario to buy strings in bulk, but we still needed to show a track record and supply references and introduce ourselves to the proper people in the company...again done at a NAMM convention.

In short, be professional in your business dealings and you will get professional treatment in return. And as trite as it may sound, "pay your dues".

Hank



[QUOTE=McCollum] [QUOTE=Rod True]


Yes, business is business. But have you considered what's involved in buying directly from Gotoh? You can't go right to Gotoh. You have to go through an approved Gotoh dealer. After years of working hard at NAMM to meet with Mr. Gotoh we were finally granted an audience, and only then did he recommend us to his dealer in Japan. Once approved, you then have to prepare your order in the most precise manner using order lists that make almost no sense and have a part number for every screw. You don't just order X number of sets, you have configure the tuners. Then you email your initial request, wait for the response, fine tune it and send it again, determine the cost converting the yen, arrange to wire transfer the money, wait for confirmation of the order and an idea of how they will arrive - by air or by sea - and how long you might have to wait for the arrival - weeks. Getting them into the country once they decided when they were sending them was the easiest part of the whole deal - Customs wasn't a problem. Then you get the order and have to break it down and make sure you have all the pieces. It's a lot of work just to get that break. And a one-time order of 75 sets won't likely get you in the door. They are looking for people who will place large orders regularly.

If you're planning on pursuing these dealers, then you need to have a business license/resale license to get wholesale prices. It would be in your best interest to join NAMM and go to the shows to meet the representatives. For some dealers, they will also ask you for proof of your business in some form (a brochure, website - one even requested a picture of the storefront with signage)and many will require a few references from other people you have purchased from to show you are a real business. This is if you are looking for the best possible price. And then minimums are hefty and sometimes the break point is not worth it.

Yes, business is busines, and the dollar still speaks. But factor in the work and time involved to build the reputation to get the deals and then decide if it's worth it to save money on a couple sets apiece.

If I was going to buy two sets, I would gladly pay somebody else for time and effort. And we do when it comes to onesy/twosy specialty items.

Just my .02

Lance McCollum[/QUOTE]

_________________
Hank Mauel